Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

60

The Rise of the Conscious Class

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

"i believe in one god, and no more; and i hope for happiness beyond this life.

i believe the equality of man, and i believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

but, lest it should be supposed that i believe many other things in addition to these, i shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things i do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great post by the OP. In addition to the "conscious class," I know lots of JWs, especially "born-ins" under age 45, who could probably be classified as "potential future members of the conscious class."

These include the childless married couples who both work full-time, drive nice cars, own a home, and take lots of vacations. These include the parents who are encouraging their children to attend university. These include the men in their 30s who have no interest in serving as MS or elders and are happy to put in their 6-8 hours of "service" per month. They're the ones that last week's WT classified as "coasting along" in the congregation.

It's just another religion to these folks. They don't feel any burning desire to witness to others. They don't do any personal study aside from spending five minutes underlining the WT before the Sunday meeting. Deep down, they know something is wrong, but there are forces keeping them from taking any further action (primarily family, friends, and "where else can we go?"). But when the status quo changes--for example, if a family member is DF'd--that may be the catalyst for taking the next step.

The WTS knows that there are LOTS of these JWs out there--especially in the USA and other developed countries.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

@Moshe: I absolutely agree that it's not a medical decision--it's a religious one. That's what I was taught "from infancy" by my JW parents. But for years the WTS has tried to make it appear that it's actually doing its membership (and the world at large) a favor by pointing out the dangers of blood. The result is that when confronted with the shaky scriptural basis for the WTS blood doctrine, many JWs resort to the "blood doesn't save lives anyway" argument.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Thanks yknot. It would be interesting to read the full articles quoted in that 1977 WT publication. But even taking the excerpts at face value, they seem to be saying:

Transfused red cells cannot carry oxygen at full capacity for about 24 hours post-transfusion. [This is different from the way it was relayed to me. The JWs told me that transfused blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours. There's a big difference between carrying some oxygen and not carrying any oxygen.]
Blood that's been stored for more than ten days (at least using the standard practices of the 1970s) does not carry as much oxygen as fresh blood. [To me that's simply saying that it's better to use recently-donated blood.]

This is just another example of where a little knowledge can be so dangerous. You've got these JWs with no medical training making blanket statements about how transfused blood behaves in the body. They make these statements based on selective quotations in WTS publications from 30+ years ago. I'm sure the WTS is more than happy for its followers to mis-interpret these quotes as meaning that blood simply doesn't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours post-transfusion.

35

Doesn't the WTS say that blood can't carry oxygen for the first 24 hours after a transfusion?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

some jws have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused.

is this in print in wt publications?

it must be, because i've heard it on multiple occasions from different jws.. i find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Some JWs have told me that blood transfusions cannot save lives in the case of catastrophic bleeding (for example, resulting from an auto accident) because blood cannot carry oxygen for 24 hours after it has been transfused. Is this in print in WT publications? It must be, because I've heard it on multiple occasions from different JWs.

I find it very hard to believe that such a statement is true. Perhaps blood doesn't reach its full oxygen-carrying capacity until some period of time has passed, but I highly doubt that blood simply serves as a volume expander for the first 24 hours.

Does anyone have more info on this--or can someone point me to some information?

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Wow, this is amazing! So according to the WT generation of "generation," a child born today--in 2010--is actually part of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Generation) because there are still plenty of WWII vets alive today...

18

Ambiguities surrounding the enforcement of Watchtower rules

by drew sagan in

i could write a good bit on this topic, but thought i would simply open this up for discussion.

here are a few things to think about:.

- the watchtower has no fundamental writing that it turns to as its foundational text.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Drew, your last point about inconsistent (or even contradictory) rules in WT literature is well-taken. Some JWs have a talent for finding WT articles that justify whatever they want to do. For example, in the past I knew some fun-loving JWs who were constantly being accused of "stumbling" other JWs. These fun-loving Witnesses found some statements in WT literature that a strong Christian can't (or shouldn't) be stumbled--in other words, if you got stumbled it was your own fault.

Situations like that are what lead to "liberal" or "conservative" congregations, circuits, etc. The WTS writes its literature in such wishy-washy fashion, trying to create the illusion that we're all mature Christians and they aren't making rules. Most JWs see right through it and realize that when the WTS says things like "most mature Christians would not do XYZ" and understand that the WTS is saying not to do XYZ. But others (like myself in a previous life) would see this as a loophole and say "well, maybe most wouldn't do it...but they're not saying I can't." That's where elders come into play.

If a body of elders interprets WTS directives in a strict way, that body can impose its interpretation on the congregation. This has its most immediate impact on servants/elders/pioneers because the body gets to decide whether they are "exemplary." And this "exemplary-ness" is based on the opinion of the body of elders. Period. But this can also have an impact on the rank & file.

For example, the WTS has had general directions regarding parties and weddings for years. The WTS has often cautioned against having large parties. Some bodies of elders understand this to be a rule that JW parties must be small (no more than X number of attendees). If a body decides this, then if someone wants to throw a big party, the elders and their families would discourage it--and at the very least refuse to attend. This would have a chilling effect on the congregation. Most good JWs wouldn't want to attend a party that is disapproved by the elders, and most JWs wouldn't want to throw a party that's disapproved by the elders. Thus, the result of these elders' interpretation of WTS rules would be no more parties larger than a certain size.

154

JW Apologists please tell me where your God was when .....

by wobble in

during the dark days of the second world war , the monsters that ran a concentration camp decided to hang a child.. they hung the poor little chap so that it took half an hour for him to die, all the while making the other inmates look into the face of the child.. where was your god then ?

was he not strong enough to do anything or did he just not care ?.

if the first then he is a very weak god, if the second then,.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Reminds me of the following quote: "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

56

More evidence that WTS is hurting for $$$ - change to special pioneer mileage reimbursement

by sir82 in

jw
friends

per a letter sent to all special pioneers in the us:.

previously the society reimbursed the special pioneers at a flat rate of x cents per mile, to cover the cost of gasoline and maintenance on their cars.

if i recall correctly, it may even have been the standard irs allowable deduction, something like 40-50 cents per mile.. beginning in 2010, the society will reimburse for mileage only, and strictly follow a mathematical formula, using:.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Isaac, you're right. That could be a bigger savings. Say a special pioneer drove 10,000 miles out in service in a car that gets 25 mi/gal. In 2009 he would get $5,000 back from the WTS. In 2010, he would get $1,000, so the WTS saves $4,000. Note that some portion of these special pioneers are married couples-- of the few that I've known over the years, most have been married couples, and I think most of the kicked-out Bethelites are married couples.

To the extent that the married couples have worked together, that will reduce the impact of this new policy. For example, I can imagine a married couple driving 15,000 miles in service during the year. In 2009, the WTS would reimburse them $7,500. In 2010, their reimbursement would be $1,500, which is $5,000 less than 2009. But that works out to only $2,500 less per person.

It seems clear to me that this new policy will have a HUGE impact on the special pioneers. Under the old policy a special pioneer could almost double his/her "income" via the mileage. No doubt many/most/all special pioneers were using this mileage money to pay for essentials (rent, utilities, food). Must be tough to get the rug yanked from under you like that.

As a side note, does anyone know how many special pioneers are in the USA? It's been a while since I've seen a KM (and I think they may not even include all that info anymore).

30

The Future New Lights (jw speak for corrections) Of the Illustrative GB

by frankiespeakin in

the scene of the world is changing and so must the jw religion in order to keep pace and keep losses in currant membership to a minimum and still offer an attractive lure for prospective new converts.

this must be done on a regular basis just to keep them afloat as old teachings were actually made by a group of old men with old ideas and old dates that have to give way to the obvious reality of unfulfilled predictions.. the wt publishing company has sought new blood in the way of younger men appointed to the high ranks of the gb,, some receiving their calling to the anointed latter than 1960 long after the once imposed cutoff date of 1935 for those with the heavenly calling.

i remember as an elder back in the 80's being told by the co not to count some in the congregation who were partaking of the emblems at the memorial, because they were not baptized early enough and the reason given was that they obviously had some emotional problems that caused them to make the claim and that counting them would throw the wt figures out of whack.. apparently the wt corporation's ceos are on the horns of a dilemma caused by their short sighted predictions and literal interpretations of the #144,000 in revelation, and adding to the mix of doctrinal problems is also the ever increasing scientific knowledge being taught in grammar, middle, and high schools much to the chagrin of bible fundamentalist who are seeking and even demanding equal time for their theory of intelligent design creationism.. will the wt go with the flow and learn from the catholic church(who at one time tortured and killed heretics) but now accepts the earth is not the center of the universe and who's leader the pope now claims the fact of evolution is not at odds with the bible?

Olin Moyles Ghost

JWoods, it certainly is a doctrinal mess. Saying that the 144k is not literal would clear it up. Also, some have suggested that the WTS may say that not all 1st century Christians were anointed. I think that would open a can of worms--for example, it would make the omission of any reference to an earthly hope in the New Testament even more glaring--but it's certainly a possibility.

30

The Future New Lights (jw speak for corrections) Of the Illustrative GB

by frankiespeakin in

the scene of the world is changing and so must the jw religion in order to keep pace and keep losses in currant membership to a minimum and still offer an attractive lure for prospective new converts.

this must be done on a regular basis just to keep them afloat as old teachings were actually made by a group of old men with old ideas and old dates that have to give way to the obvious reality of unfulfilled predictions.. the wt publishing company has sought new blood in the way of younger men appointed to the high ranks of the gb,, some receiving their calling to the anointed latter than 1960 long after the once imposed cutoff date of 1935 for those with the heavenly calling.

i remember as an elder back in the 80's being told by the co not to count some in the congregation who were partaking of the emblems at the memorial, because they were not baptized early enough and the reason given was that they obviously had some emotional problems that caused them to make the claim and that counting them would throw the wt figures out of whack.. apparently the wt corporation's ceos are on the horns of a dilemma caused by their short sighted predictions and literal interpretations of the #144,000 in revelation, and adding to the mix of doctrinal problems is also the ever increasing scientific knowledge being taught in grammar, middle, and high schools much to the chagrin of bible fundamentalist who are seeking and even demanding equal time for their theory of intelligent design creationism.. will the wt go with the flow and learn from the catholic church(who at one time tortured and killed heretics) but now accepts the earth is not the center of the universe and who's leader the pope now claims the fact of evolution is not at odds with the bible?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Frankie and JWoods: The WTS already jettisoned the 1935 cutoff date for the heavenly calling. It was in the May 1, 2007 WT in a Questions from Readers article.

Interestingly, this article came out shortly after the death of the last GB member to be anointed before 1935 (can't remember whether it was Barber or Schroeder). So today none of the current GB members professed the heavenly calling before 1935. Not surprising that the Society scrapped this doctrine.